Last week, John and I (David) had the opportunity to sit down with Chris Kresser (chriskresser.com) and answer some questions from his audience about the stabilized sulforaphane in BrocElite.
The interview (audio only) is 1 hour and 14 minutes long, and the transcript can be found below. To view the slides mentioned in the interview, please click here.
Transcript:
Chris Kresser:
Hi everybody. I'm so glad to see you all filing into the room. I'm really excited about this today. We're going to do a Q&A about broccoli, which is the sulforaphane supplement that I take myself, I'm recommending to my patients, and I've recently recommended to all of you. As you probably are aware now, since if you've heard the podcast, you've seen some of my emails, it's really a unique product. And I have a pretty high bar when it comes to taking a supplement myself, certainly, because I count the number of supplements I take daily, on one hand... less than one hand, actually. And the same reason with patients, if I'm going to prescribe something to a patient, it needs to pass a high bar. And if I'm going to include something in the curriculum for the practitioner training program, we're training practitioners all over the world, it needs to achieve a very high bar.
Chris Kresser:
So there's a lot of gauntlets that I have to put a new potential product through for it to pass the muster. And sulforaphane has exceeded all of those with flying colors. Broccoli has, rather, as a sulforaphane supplement. So I'm really excited to answer your questions about it. And, with me, I have David Roberts and John Gildea from BrocElite, and I'm going to turn it over to them to introduce themselves in a moment.
Chris Kresser:
And just a couple of housekeeping things to start with. We'll go for about an hour, maybe a little bit more. I would ask you to put your questions into the Q&A box, that's different than the chat box, because it's just easier for me to track them and mark them off as answered. If you have any technical issues, we'll do our best to help. You can put that in the chat box and, Kelly, who's assisting with the webinar today, will do her best to help you out there. So I see we've already got one question. Go ahead and put those in the Q&A box and we'll start going through them.
Chris Kresser:
But, first, I want to turn it over to David. And, David, maybe you could tell everyone just a little bit about why you started BrocElite, how this came about. And then, John, maybe you could introduce yourself and tell everyone a little bit about your background.
David Roberts:
Yeah. Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having us on. It's great to be with you today. And so, yeah. Basically, the supplement, BrocElite, was born out of my wife's cancer journey. She was diagnosed with cancer back in 2012. And pretty soon after that, we ended up growing some of her cancer cells in our lab at the time, and ended up putting a bunch of different supplements on her cancer to see what would actually kill her type of cancer. And sulforaphane was number three in directly killing.
David Roberts:
And so, I went out to buy it and ended up spending a lot of money on sulforaphane glucosinolate, which... That's sulforaphane, right? But it wasn't. And so, as we saw none of the benefits that I read about in literature, ended up realizing that it was the precursor chemical and ended up transitioning to a massive broccoli sprout growing operation in our kitchen, where we'd use every day... And so we did that for about four years.
David Roberts:
And then, I think, somewhere around there, on the... Actually, the first week my wife was diagnosed, we met John through mutual friends, and I've been peppering him with questions for the last six years or so seven years. But, basically, in there, once we saw sulforaphane was so important, I think we had a conversation about wouldn't it be great if we could stabilize this.
David Roberts:
And John is a pioneer. He's an inventor. He's very humble, so you will never know he's a genius. But he took it upon himself and ended up figuring out how to stabilize sulforaphane. We sent it out to third-party testing, realized that what he had done. And then, actually, my wife made the first move, at the time, to bring it to market. And so that, after she died, about six months later, it was pretty clear that we needed to do this for... help people's health, in general. So that's a little bit about BrocElite. Yeah.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. I mean, that's a powerful story, David. And there's so much of my own discoveries come out of my own experience. Right? And that's where we have the most motivation and the most direct path forward, I think. So I really appreciate you sharing that. John, and David mentioned, he met you six years ago through a family friend. But tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to this.
John Gildea:
Yeah. So, I guess, I had a pretty traditional training. I got my PhD at Johns Hopkins, in molecular genetics and model organisms. So wouldn't exactly tend to prepare me for practical precision medicine. So, what happened, similar to the stories David was talking about, was my wife got cancer during my postdoc, where I was studying metastatic cancer at the University of Virginia. And I was just struck with... I had just cloned a very important gene in metastatic progression, my career seemed to be going very well.
John Gildea:
And then, I was faced with the fact that I was only offered modalities that were around from the 1960s for my wife. And it opened my eyes to there must be other things. And so, we just chased down everything that we thought was validated from literature that could help her. She's still with us now, 18 years later, doing really well. And, since then, I've always been trying to share whatever I know about these pathways in natural compounds to amend any person's personal protocol. And so, that's how I met David and his wife. And when I heard about their needs, that just seemed like a really interesting project to do on the side. And, thankfully, my family was kind enough to put up with a lot of super stinky evenings because I was-
Chris Kresser:
They are sulfur compounds, right?
John Gildea:
... in my house, and so, thankfully, we ended up having another place to do it, eventually. So that's how BrocElite got started.
Chris Kresser:
Great. Well, thanks, both, for that introduction. So I'm going to dive into the questions. We've got one which is, "I'm wondering if the supplement's okay or helpful for someone with Barrett's esophagus and GERD, who is taking low dose proton-pump inhibitors." I'll answer that. And David and John can dive in, if you have anything to add. I wouldn't see a conflict there. We can't, of course, provide personal medical advice on this call. And without knowing the full situation, we can't make individualized recommendations. But just from a general perspective, I don't necessarily see a conflict with someone taking PPIs. What do you guys think?
John Gildea:
Just, in general, since it's an, I would generally say that, obviously, go through your doctor. But BrocElite has very strong anti-inflammatory properties, and may not just be not bad, but could actually get at the root causes.
Chris Kresser:
Right. Next. Go ahead, David.
David Roberts:
Questions like that, we just suggest folks to try it. We offer unconditional money-back guarantee. So if it doesn't work, we'll just refund you.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd say, just clinically, we've definitely used it in patients with GERD and all kinds of other GI conditions, and it tends to work really well and be pretty well-tolerated. And this is a good segue to Margaret's question. She's had Hashimoto's since puberty. At age 62, she's got persistently elevated CRP, that's C-reactive protein, plus arthritis, another inflammatory condition with pain in the hips and shoulders. "Would BrocElite help?"
Chris Kresser:
I can't say, for sure, Margaret, but you definitely fit the profile of who we would think about BrocElite for in a clinical case. Because, when I think of it, two of the main benefits, one is anti-inflammatory and that's in part because of its impact on Nrf-2 and other enzymes that are involved in the inflammatory process. And then, the second major effect would be detoxification, which I'm sure we'll come across a question related to that in a few, so we can go into a little bit more detail there. But I've definitely seen reductions in CRP, improvements in inflammatory symptoms like arthritis, when we use BrocElite alone or in combination with other interventions that we might be doing. Anything to add, John or David?
David Roberts:
I think the one thing that pops into mind is a lot of the autoimmune diseases that are becoming so prevalent, often start with microbiome, and then [intestinal 00:10:20] integrity. And we've definitely seen positive effects on intestinal cell integrity could be central at the beginning stages of that. And, I assume, if you correct it afterwards, it may help with, along with other things, to possibly correct them.
Chris Kresser:
Great. Okay. So, Kate, will you link us the five supplements you take daily? Actually, it's fewer than five and it varies, occasionally, depending on what's going on. Magnesium is one, broccoli is another. Right now, those are actually the only two I'm taking at the moment. Sometimes, Cod liver oil, depending on what's going on with my intake of organ meats, and sun exposure, and intake of cold water, fatty fish, and other things like that. And that's pretty much it.
Chris Kresser:
I'm one of those people who doesn't require vitamin D because I spend a fair amount of time outdoors and I convert sunlight pretty well, but I prefer to get most of my nutrients from food when that's possible. And I only will take a supplement if it's not possible to get the amount of nutrition from food that I'm trying to get, or if there's a particular therapeutic benefit that I'm going for. And that's the case with all three of those supplements that I just mentioned.
Chris Kresser:
Shannon, yes, we will send a recording out. So no worries about that. Nancy. Oh, this is a good question, and it's come up a bunch in our audience, David and John. Someone who has an allergy to sulfa medications and antibiotics. And I would extend this. Nancy didn't mention this, but we have some patients who are generally sensitive to sulfur-based molecules like glutathione. Will broccoli work for them?
John Gildea:
Yeah. So, interestingly, the amount of sulfur that ends up in the final product is actually relatively smaller. Some, but there'll be much less than any source that would possibly be problematic. But, with allergies, of course, any amount could be trouble. And so, if you are, I would definitely [tell 00:12:48] your physician because there is some. There are sulfur-containing products, just like it would be in broccoli itself.
Chris Kresser:
So, yeah. I would reiterate that. There's a difference between allergy and intolerance. If it's a sulfur intolerance, in my experience, that's a threshold-based situation where most people who have sulfur intolerance can tolerate a little bit of sulfur in the diet. But, if it exceeds a certain threshold, they have problems. Whereas, as John mentioned, if it's a true allergy, then even a small amount could provoke a pretty big response. So, if it's an allergy, I would suggest consulting with your providers, as John said. If it's an intolerance, I would just give it a try, because the amount of sulfur that's in one or two capsules of BrocElite, it's fairly small relative to other sources that you had encountered, just in the context of eating a diet with animal protein, for example, or other kinds of sulfur molecules that are in lots of foods.
David Roberts:
And, Chris, while we're on the topic of allergies, a question we get a lot is if you're allergic to broccoli, can you take BrocElite? And so, that would be no, because it's broccoli.
Chris Kresser:
Right. Yeah. Okay. Kayla Vass: "Any supplements to avoid while taking this?" Interesting question. So, nothing really comes to mind for me. We've used it with lots of other supportive nutrients, curcumin, glutathione, herbs, vitamins, minerals. Curcumin, for example, has blood thinning effect. So high doses of curcumin should be avoided and people taking blood thinners are... John, David, any contraindications with... Kayla mentioned supplements, but any contraindications with any kind of molecules, whether they're medications or supplements?
David Roberts:
Because sulforaphane thins blood as well. And, also, if you're, you're on a blood pressure medication, you'll want to be careful. And, I mean-
Chris Kresser:
Is that because it can lower blood pressure? So that's a plus, minus there, because it could lower blood pressure and you're already on medication, you want to avoid a hypotension type of event?
David Roberts:
Yes.
John Gildea:
Right. Now, it would be the same with blood sugars, as it's not a super strong blood glucose lowering effect. But I personally noticed if I'm fasting, I'll notice a bigger effect with sulforaphane. The blood sugar will go down low enough, that you can feel that it's bordering on the uncomfortable.
David Roberts:
Or if you're doing keto, ketogenic diet. I've gone into natriuresis before where I just peeing all the time, because trying to gain equilibrium. And, typically, if you're taking... it does work in synergy with the curcumin. And so, if you're taking curcumin, we have a berberine product for keto and blood glucose. And so, I take all three and I have to be careful not to overdo it.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. Great. Yeah. And there's a lot of individual variation here, of course, with all this stuff. So, if you're under the supervision of a provider, you run it by them, or, at least, be tracking. Especially, if you have type 1 diabetes, you're taking insulin, or you've got a situation where the stakes are a little bit higher, it's definitely good to go slowly and track it, preferably, under the supervision of a provider. This is from Jay, who is in the UK. We have a pretty large international audience. And, sometimes, they're understandably envious of their US cohorts who have access to a lot of stuff that they may not have access to. So, "Is there any way for international folks to get BrocElite at this time?"
David Roberts:
We sell internationally. So you can order and we can send to the UK. And then, also, I think, if you're in the UK... Yeah. Let me just say, I'll just leave it there. We ship directly. We're trying to get some other avenues, but-
Kresser:
Patricia. "What supplements can be substituted with BrocElite?" So I'm not totally sure I understand your question, Patricia. I'm going to interpret it, to mean that, can BrocElite replace other supplements that you're taking, which is always a goal of mine, because I want to keep that number under five, generally. For me, I just don't like popping a lot of pills. Of course, at various times in my life, I was taking many more than that, and that was necessary and beneficial. Right now, I'm doing great and I feel healthy and well, so that's what I'm talking about, just for maintenance.
Chris Kresser:
But I think it comes back to understanding the mechanisms of action and the effects of sulforaphane, and BrocElite, in particular. As I mentioned in the podcast, almost 40 distinct pro-health mechanisms have been identified. I think, a lot in the broad categories of anti-inflammatory and detoxification being the two biggest effects, and lots of sub-effects under that. And, as John mentioned, another interesting one might relate to gut barrier integrity, which, as we know, is then linked to all kinds of different issues-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:19:04]
Chris Kresser:
As we know, is then linked to all kinds of different issues from auto-immune disease, to blood sugar regulation, diabetes, cardiovascular concerns, et cetera. So if you're taking other things for those purposes, it could be worth experimenting with varying levels of benefit you get from each of those things. I always encourage people to do that, including my patients. Try stopping a supplement you've been taking for a while if there's no explicit reason for you to continue taking it and it's not under medical guidance, I like to stop taking something and see what happens. Try something new and see what happens there. I'm always experimenting and I encourage that. Anything to add, John or David?
John Gildea:
That idea is pretty novel in the medical world. So congratulate you on that. We ran into it accidentally in a clinical study one time on hypertension. And a lot of people that came in to do the study, part of the study was to under medical supervision reduce your hypertension meds. And we found that 50% of the people's blood pressure didn't change. So it's a good idea to test whether you're getting the benefit of what you're taking, especially if it's something obvious like you can feel the difference.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. I've found that so often in my clinical practice. People will come in, and we always ask what supplements and medications they're taking. And I'll get a list. And at the end of the first appointment, we go through it. And my general advice is if you're taking something and you're not sure why you're taking it, or you can't remember why you started, and you're not sure if you're getting any benefit from it, and there's no good reason for you to not stop taking it, try stopping it and see what happens. And then add some of the new stuff that we're talking about and see what happens there. And oftentimes people will find that they're able to prune their supplement lists by 50% or more just by doing that because they've tended to accumulate supplements over time from different recommendations, different providers, people like me that they follow. And sometimes they're beneficial. Sometimes they're beneficial for a period of time, and then they stopped being beneficial. We're not robots. Things change over time. Our physiology is constantly changing and our needs are changing. So it's just good to be adaptive to that.
Chris Kresser:
All right, Catherine, this is for you guys. Any human studies that show efficacy for BrocElite at this point?
John Gildea:
We are doing our own studies. So we have a clinical trial where we measured decrease in inflammation in urine. And that was a decrease in IL-6 expression in urine. And so we did see efficacy. I thought that was a good thing to chase down because the basis of that study was that everyone is a little bit inflamed. And that was what we're kind of going for. Some people boo-hooed that idea because you wouldn't normally think of IL-6 as being present in a person who's healthy. But even in our entirely healthy population, we were able to damp down the IL-6 expression in the kidney, into the urine. So kind of proves what we thought all along is that we're sitting in a toxic world and we're all a little bit inflamed, even healthy and young people. So that was, I think the first study that we did.
David Roberts:
Yeah. We wanted to see how quickly broccoli worked. And so how we set it up was we were able to determine a 30% drop in IL-6 and 24 hours from one serving. And then also we looked at... John was able to develop a way to measure Nrf2 directly from buccal cells, a buccal swab in your cheek cells. And so he was able to see... What did you find there, John?
John Gildea:
I'm still looking for the paper where they show actual Nrf2 activation from a supplement in a human. And so that was sort of the goal I was going for. And so I thought an accessible cell that I could study ex vivo... We could take the supplement, take some buccal swabs, put them onto a slide before and after taking sulforaphane, and then also taking the same buccal swabs and incubate them outside of the body in a series of test tubes, and then see where the concentration of pure sulforaphane will activate these particular cells so we could correlate the dose inside your body that is equivalent to a direct dose on the cells, if that makes sense.
David Roberts:
We have some slides. I don't know if that would be of interest to you.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. Let's bring those up. We love data around here.
John Gildea:
So do you want to walk through what they're looking at?
David Roberts:
So that's what's showing on the screen?
John Gildea:
Yes, it is.
Chris Kresser:
Yes.
John Gildea:
So going from the top is a direct incubation with vehicle. The second row is ex vivo, meaning cells outside of the body being incubated with five micromolar sulforaphane, which is a little bit higher than what normally they find in the broccoli sprout extract studies. But we see a robust increase in Nrf2, which is what we're looking at in immunofluorescence. And then the bottom panel was where I showed that in an individual that took the BrocElite orally had an equivalent induction of Nrf2 as two hour incubation with five micromoles. So the basic idea here is that we wanted to show what an effective dose was. And so a normal dose of the supplement produced an amount of Nrf2 induction that matches a huge number of cells where you would clearly see an Nrf2 induction with a normal dose.
Chris Kresser:
Great. Yeah. And that's super important, of course, because with so many of the other products out there, you're just taking precursors and there's inefficient conversion of those precursors into sulforaphane.
Chris Kresser:
So this one's from Audrey. I talked to you both a little bit about this via email. I'm going to punt this over to you and you can answer it however you choose to answer it. Is the product endorsed by Jed Fahey, who's a leading sulforaphane researcher?
David Roberts:
Yeah. We've talked to Jed. He's tested our product. He has not endorsed it, but we have a certificate of analysis that we have what we say we have in the capsule.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. So I'll just say without going into any detail here, there are many reasons for why someone may or may not endorse a product. And we'll just leave it at that. For now I think the important thing is that in the testing that Jed did of the product, as David said, it's exactly what it's purported to be.
Chris Kresser:
Next question from Onchu. What's the right way to take the supplement for optimum benefits? How long has it been tested for long term side effects, if any? I'll kind of kick us off with the first part of that question. The second part is quite distinct. So I'll let you guys answer that.
Chris Kresser:
And this kind of ties to the next question from Alice, whose husband took one capsule for two days in a row and got nauseous and had diarrhea. So there are lots of possible responses to a supplement, or taking a supplement. And when somebody has a reaction, as a clinician, the first distinction or question in my mind is, "Is that reaction due to a reaction to something in the product itself, like an allergy?" For example, someone that's allergic to sulfur-based molecules or has a pretty high sulfur intolerance. Or are they allergic to a binder or filler, which would not be the case with BrocElite because it doesn't contain them. So that's one possibility. And another possibility is, is the reaction tied to the effect that the supplement is supposed to have, but it's because of the internal physiology of that person, that effect is too strong initially.
Chris Kresser:
So a good example might be if someone has a high toxic burden and they take a supplement that is very powerful in terms of its ability to detoxify, then it's possible that somebody might experience a pretty strong response. And in that case, my advice would be to slow way down and take maybe a half a capsule every three days or something to start, and then build up very slowly. And if in doing that, the reaction subsides, and then you're able to slowly add incrementally over time without any adverse reaction, then it's likely that it was just the supplement doing what it was supposed to do, but it was just doing too much of it too quickly. However, if you add it back in and every time you take even a small amount, you have a strong reaction, then to me that points to something else like an allergy or an intolerance.
David Roberts:
Yeah. And just to be clear, we've really loaded our capsule. I mean, it's very potent. And so in some ways I'm surprised more people don't have an adverse reaction, but as far as the nausea piece, that is common. And so if he hadn't eaten before he took it, eating something, taking it on a full stomach can help with the nausea piece. And then the GI piece. There's a whole slew of issues that could be going on there. But I like what you said, Chris. And we actually do have a kid's version, which has half the dose of the sulforaphane, as well as we decided not to put the phenethyl isothiocyanate, which is the cousin chemical that works-
Chris Kresser:
PEITC.
David Roberts:
PEITC that works in synergy. Specifically for kids that are younger, but also for this very reason, if it has a bad reaction, try that, because it's much gentler on the stomach.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. I would say I have seen this reaction as well. I tell patients and other people that I recommend it to that it's very potent, and this is one of the reasons we wanted to do this Q and A, because too often, I see with lots of supplements, not just broccoli or sulforaphane. But somebody starts and they have a bad reaction and then they stop, figuring that it's not going to work for them. Well, that's not always or even often the case. For me, the worst response to a supplement is no response. Maybe with vitamin D or things like that, you don't notice as much, but generally if you have a strong positive response or a strong negative response initially, something's going on there and it doesn't always mean that the negative response will eventually turn into a positive response, but it can often mean that.
Chris Kresser:
So it's worth doing that trial and error and experimentation that I was referring to before and low and slow wins the game. That's always what I'm telling patients with these kinds of interventions. There's no rush. There's no award for going faster and building up to the full therapeutic dose faster. And for some people, the full therapeutic dose might be two per day. And for some, it might be one per day. It just varies based on what's going on. And that might change over time. If you're under a lot of toxic burden or high inflammatory load, you might need two for a period of time. And then when things settle down, one might be fine. So I really encourage everyone to do this kind of experimentation, and to be cautious, and take it slowly, because that's going to pay off in the long term almost always.
David Roberts:
And in the literature, the nausea piece is well documented. And so it is sort of a normal response. What is it? A quarter?
John Gildea:
Yeah, it says in some of the higher doses of the broccoli sprout extract, it's 70% of participants that have nausea.
Chris Kresser:
That's pretty high. So you're in good company. And again, you could look at that and say, "Well, doesn't this mean we shouldn't be taking it?" I don't think so. Because as John mentioned, we are in a situation now where even well-functioning, healthy people are often... We're exposed to a high toxic burden that we can't avoid in many cases, despite our good attempts to live a healthy lifestyle. And the modern world we live in has so many threats to our health and wellbeing that it's almost unavoidable that we're going to have some kind of chronic inflammatory burden. And one of the reasons why I'm taking this regularly is I just want to minimize that to the greatest extent possible. And of course, I do it in many other ways, like sleeping enough and exercising and managing my stress and eating a nutrient dense anti-inflammatory diet. But when it comes to managing inflammation, I want to do the best that I can, because that's pretty much the root of all modern chronic disease.
Chris Kresser:
So the next question is from Chris. This is a good one. I'm glad somebody brought it up. Wouldn't consuming the whole food, meaning broccoli sprouts, or juice from broccoli sprouts offer more benefits versus taking a supplement? I addressed this at length in my podcast, but not everyone who's on the Q and A necessarily heard the podcast or even saw the email. So why don't you guys kick that off? And I'll jump in if I have anything to add.
David Roberts:
I mean, it's a great question because often that's the case. But in this scenario... I'll just as an aside, back in 2019, we were sourcing organic broccoli seed and ended up buying off Amazon five distinct brands of organic seed. And we were pretty surprised to find that four of the five brands provided no glucoraphanin, no ability to make sulforaphane from the seed. And so we repeated that in January of 2020, and we were actually very glad to see that it was with seven organic seeds. And six of the seven could provide a varying amount of glucoraphanin to make sulforaphane. And one, again, provided no sulforaphane conversion. So it's somewhat of a crapshoot, unfortunately. We do sell our seeds for that very reason on our website. About a half a pound can yield a 400 milligrams of sulforaphane.
David Roberts:
And that's pretty consistent, plus or minus a little bit. But it's pretty consistently 400 milligrams. For those who are just sprouting enthusiasts. I think the other issue, having sprouted myself, four to five years, you lose crops due to mold. You have to go away occasionally. And so you have to stop your growing. It is a much more inexpensive way to get the sulforaphane, but having a supplement in your back pocket provides a level of ease if you even are a sprouting enthusiasts, for those times where you can't get a crop.
David Roberts:
I think the other facet is, personally I've noticed... We've done quite a bit of sprouting. And I will notice when I started taking BrocElite that I had very vivid dreams. That had never happened when I was doing sprouting. And so there is a difference. And we also add the PEITC, which actually provides a much synergistic Nrf2 response. So those are some answers.
Chris Kresser:
Right. And for everyone who's not familiar, that's a compound from watercress that I mentioned that works synergistically with sulforaphane to provide some of those benefits. One of the things that I appreciate about BrocElite is that because of the extraction process, it's water-based, you're getting a lot of the other compounds that you would get from the sprouting process, things like erusin or other isothiocyanates that you would get from the sprouts. You're not just getting completely isolated sulforaphane alone, which you might get from another product.
John Gildea:
Yeah. That shows up in the lab all the time, which is really interesting that...
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:38:04]
John Gildea:
... In a lab all the time, which is really interesting that a complete water extract acts very differently, even than the highly purified, 99% sulforaphane that you buy from the industrial source, they behave differently for sure.
Chris Kresser:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Gildea:
And interestingly, the biggest thing that we find, is less toxicity. Sulforaphane, strangely in the literature, there's clear papers where they show, in doses, that you normally can't get in vivo, you have toxicity towards cells. And we don't see that with the straight water extract that we do.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of folks in my audience know that I'm an herbalist. I was trained as an herbalist and a traditional herbalist. And of course, in herbalism we have deep respect and appreciation for the whole plant. And the Western idea of isolating single nutrients, or compounds can be effective in some cases, but it's also problematic, because we don't have yet a complex and nuanced understanding of the role that all of the compounds within a plant play.
John Gildea:
Yes.
Chris Kresser:
And in some cases, those roles can be very important, as you pointed out John. They may help protect against toxicity, or have some other synergistic role where there are a co-factor, or something, where they increase absorption. And so, most of the supplements I take, or recommend have that characteristic, where they're simulating the properties of a whole food, as closely as possible.
Chris Kresser:
That's what we're trying to get to, when we take supplements basically. And hopefully, improving on it in some way. In the case of broccoli, it's certainly with convenience, it's with the concentration of the dosage. I think the other thing that's worth pointing out probably David, is in addition to making the sprouts, you have to eat them and/or juice them. For some people, the amount that they would have to eat on a daily basis could be not pleasant. For some people, they don't mind. Or, even like the taste of broccoli sprouts, other people, not so much. And so, just being able to take capsules, is a convenience that some, but not everyone will appreciate. There's certainly people for whom the sprouting is an enjoyable process. And I love that you guys sell seeds with verified glucoraphanin content, so that if people who do want to go that route can do it and know that they're at least getting seeds that are likely to produce sulforaphane.
David Roberts:
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, having juiced broccoli sprouts for so long, I mean, it is potent, it's pungent. We did settle on a juice that's actually on our website. With carrot and ginger and some lemon, the citrus cuts that pungent. And so, it's palatable, but it's a hard chemical.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah.
David Roberts:
And so, having the capsule, especially if you have some issue going on where you're nauseous like cancer, it just provides some ease.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, I would say, the other thing I've noticed about sprouts in general and juice from sprouts, for people with sensitive guts, they can be hard on the gut. And it's a sulfur-based compound. So, keep that in mind, what can sometimes happen there? So, the next question is from Ashley, and she's asking about the difference between DIM, which is also found in broccoli, of course, and sulforaphane. She currently takes DIM for hormone support. So, how should she be thinking about the difference with mechanisms of action, effects and stuff between these two supplements? Because, they both help with detox, right? DIM is known for that, but they are quite different.
John Gildea:
Yeah, so the story of DIM and I3C Dell three carbon ink. I3C the precursor, they're mostly found in the adult broccoli, much higher levels. And so, there's very little in broccoli. Since, it comes from seeds. And there's a number of studies showing that their synergistic. So, really good idea to take them together. And again, the other possibility of being too potent, you want to be ready for that possibility that it could be very potent. But yeah, just in general, you still want to eat broccoli with your meals. That's how I always put it.
Chris Kresser:
Right, you're still getting benefits from that, of course, but just different ones than you're getting from the seeds. Yeah.
David Roberts:
Yeah, since we're on the topic, could we deal with the goitrogenic?
Chris Kresser:
Oh yeah. Let's talk, let's talk about that. Yeah. So, just to summarize this question and we receive it a lot, and I know David and John get a lot as well, which is, "Should anybody be concerned about the goitrogenic content of broccoli? And for those that aren't aware, goitrogens are compounds that are found in some foods, cruciferous vegetables, other substances. And this is the caveat here, and part of the answer. When consumed in very high amounts and when someone is also iodine deficient, because iodine can reduce the goitrogenic effect of substances, then it can be a problem. So, when I say very high amounts, I'm talking about someone who's having raw kale, or raw broccoli in their smoothie every morning, and who is also significantly iodine deficient. In that person, I would be concerned about a goitrogenic effect. In someone taking one, or two capsules of broccoli, I'm not even remotely concerned about that. David, John, anything to add there?
John Gildea:
Yeah, perfect said.
David Roberts:
Yep.
John Gildea:
Exactly, perfect-
Chris Kresser:
Great. And I've gotten this a lot over many, many years, and it's a totally legit question. People are concerned, especially if they have a thyroid issue that you want to be cautious and make sure you're not doing anything problematic, but it's really a non-issue. And then, just even I'll extend this beyond broccoli, just in terms of foods, cooking destroys a lot of goitrogens in foods. So, again, unless you're eating raw broccoli a lot, raw kale, putting that stuff in smoothies, even eating high amounts of cooked broccoli, or cooked kale is not going to have a goitrogenic effect for most people, especially when they're iodine replete.
John Gildea:
One quick little tidbit to add, is there's a couple of papers showing benefits of sulforaphane to thyroid issues. A lot of thyroid issues, or thyroiditis and anti-inflammatory component of that, they've been shown to be beneficial on those people. So, not just that they shouldn't avoid it, but that is actually-
Chris Kresser:
Right.
John Gildea:
A possible target.
Chris Kresser:
That's really interesting, yeah. Now, that I think about it, I mean, we know in the scientific literature, there are associations between lead and mercury exposure, and Hashimoto's an autoimmune condition that causes hypothyroidism in some patients and there's connections with BPA, many other toxins and Hashimoto's and plenty of other autoimmune diseases for that matte, but keeping it thyroid. And then, as you suggested, of course, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, any itis is an inflammatory condition. So, you probably have multiple mechanisms there with BrocElite, where it's reducing inflammation, but it could also be helping by reducing the toxic burden, which then helps the thyroid to function better.
John Gildea:
Yeah, definitely.
Chris Kresser:
All right. So, this one's from anonymous, how to take broccoli in combination with other supplements, D3, B vitamin, Vitamin K A C? And then, prescriptions. Is it okay to take in combination with these? So, again, we can't provide specific individual medical advice here, and we did mention earlier that you want to watch out, if you're taking a blood thinning medication, if you're taking insulin, or any medication that reduces blood sugar, or any medication that reduces pressure. Other than that, in terms of timing, David or John, anything to be aware of? You mentioned better to take with meals, especially if you have nausea, any reason to take with, or apart from other supplements, or medications?
John Gildea:
Just anecdotally. I know some people, because of the clear NID connection with sulforaphane, it's a big target for a lot of people. Some people feel a real big energy benefit from taking sulforaphane. So, even though it's really fun to take sulforaphane before bed, because you get these crazy dreams-
Chris Kresser:
Dark dreams.
John Gildea:
Yeah, they're really interesting. Can be in both ways too, really fun, or really horrible.
Chris Kresser:
Right.
John Gildea:
But yeah, so I will always warn people about that. If you're going to take it at nighttime, for some people, it actually increases your energy and may help make it more difficult to go to sleep.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah.
John Gildea:
So, usually I'd say morning, but-
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, it definitely has that effect on me. I don't take it after 5:00 PM. I'm one of those people that's just super sensitive to anything that's stimulating. And if I have caffeine after 10:00 AM, forget about my sleep that night. So, yeah. And it's worth pointing out, you mentioned the dream thing a couple times, but just so people know that, one of the possible mechanisms there, is the effect on BDNF-
John Gildea:
Yes.
Chris Kresser:
Brain Derived Neurotropic Factor. Which, low BDNF is associated with a lot of different cognitive and neurological disorders like Alzheimer's, or dementia. And it's thought to be the mechanism for why things like exercise for example, are such potent interventions for those conditions, because exercise powerfully up-regulates BDNF. So, when it comes to preserving our brain function and capacity, BDNF is really important. And it's interesting that broccoli has that impact on dreams. And I don't know that we know for sure that, that's what's happening there, but that would be a speculation.
John Gildea:
That's a really interesting connection. I never tried to connect it to BDNF. That's a really, really neat thought.
David Roberts:
Yeah. And I mean, just from knowing that it does up-regulate BDNF and that BDNF is at the center of really, brain health. And so, preserving existing neurons, as well as something, when I was going through school, we didn't think could happen, which is creating new neurons. And so-
Chris Kresser:
And the plasticity.
David Roberts:
Yeah. And so, it's super important and there are a number of studies on degenerative brain issues and sulforaphane protection and BDNF, specifically, protection.
Chris Kresser:
Hmm.
David Roberts:
And so, it's important.
Chris Kresser:
Super important. And the more I have done this work, the more focused I am on the brain, as the control center of optimal health. I mean, let's face it, nothing happens without going through the brain. So, the more we can do to protect our brain and to improve brain function, build new neural pathways, enhance the existing functional, supportive neural pathways, the better we're going to be just in the present moment, but also the better we're going to age. And that's something that's definitely at the top of my mind and I'm sure many other people who are watching, participating today.
Chris Kresser:
So, next question is from Carol. So, she's on a gut protocol that includes 100mgs of broccoli sprout concentrate, which is one of the, I think, multi ingredient product that she's taking. Some other things like biofilm disruptors, herbals, vitamins, minerals. "How does broccoli fit into this protocol, as far as timing to take it? Would two capsules a day, be safe? Thanks so much for this opportunity for this Q&A." Thank you Carol, for being here. I think we've probably addressed most of that questions. A lot of these questions were entered, right before we started. So, Chris, or David?
David Roberts:
We talked about it, or mentioned it. I do want to pull up a graph of a paper you alluded to. Is that all right?
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, please, please.
David Roberts:
So, this is basically a paper that looked at broccoli sprouts, versus a precursor supplement. So, that would Carol, be what you're taking?
Chris Kresser:
Right.
David Roberts:
And it's the blood plasma sulforaphane conversion. So, basically this lower circle here, is from the precursor supplement. And then, this is from the broccoli sprouts. So, essentially, this is actually three grams of glucoraphanin, which is three times the suggested dose.
Chris Kresser:
Hmm.
David Roberts:
And it just doesn't do anything.
Chris Kresser:
And it's 30 times the 100mg dose that's in the product that Carol's taking.
David Roberts:
So, I think the long and short of it is, Carol, you could take broccoli. I don't think that, the powder that you're taking is really, probably doing much, if anything. And so, it's fine to take two capsules of broccoli, or one or two capsules of broccoli with it.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. The only caveat there Carol, being what we already mentioned, that if you're taking a bunch of different things, they could have a synergistic effect. It's maybe good to be cautious, and I probably wouldn't dive right into two capsules of broccoli right off the bat. Maybe, start with half capsule and build up, since you're doing so many other things. And I'm assuming a provider prescribed that to you, so may want to also run it by that person. Okay, Bradley. "So, currently on Eliquis for afibulation, as well as a few other meds, any interactions I should know about with that product?" So, again, just hate to be the dead horse here. We can't provide medical advice specifically, and anything we say here, is just general in terms of possible interactions. Any interactions with cardiovascular meds that are particularly related to afibulation, cardiac rhythm that you're aware of John? David?
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, all right. Thyroid issues, anonymous. "Can someone with thyroid issues take it?" Absolutely, and we addressed that before. It's a really good option for someone with those issues. Moira asked, "If you're someone who consumes broccoli, or broccolini three to four times a week, what benefits can broccoli provide? Is there a risk of too much sulforaphane?" I think you addressed this John, the benefits that you get from broccoli seed and sulforaphane in particular, are very different than what you get from eating the mature broccoli plant. There are different compounds, different benefits, and you're not going to overdose on sulforaphane by eating mature broccoli. In fact, you're not going to get very much of it at all, right?
David Roberts:
That's correct.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah.
David Roberts:
And even less in broccolini.
Chris Kresser:
Right. Okay, the next one is about the goitrogen content. So, you anticipated that question. David [inaudible 00:54:38] already answered that. And Andre is asking about broccoli sprouts, we answered that. Ashley, this is a more of a personal question for you, David, and feel free to answer, or not answer. What cancer did your wife have? And what were the number one and number two most helpful supplements for her?
David Roberts:
No, I don't mind sharing. It was breast cancer, so hormone positive. And so, the first was curcumin, and then the second was vitamin C.
Chris Kresser:
Okay. Matthew says, "It looks like my broccoli order will take more than two weeks to arrive in the UK. How stable is the product? Will his delivery time be a problem?"
David Roberts:
Yeah. So, we get that question a decent amount. So, we do actually put a bit more sulforaphane in the capsules. About 20% more, to 40% more sometimes, if we can get it in there. Specifically, and in case, there's some degradation. So, we want people to get what they're buying. And so, we'll load it best we can. But, yeah, that should not be a problem, I guess.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, great. So, we're getting more questions about interactions, I think we've addressed most of those and mentioned the more significant things to be aware of. Which are not necessarily contra-indications, if someone has high blood pressure and they're taking blood pressure medication, doesn't mean they can't take broccoli, it just means you need to be aware of that. I mean, we have this conversation with most patients that we're treating from a functional medicine perspective. Even, in the context of something like thyroid medication, if we're treating someone for Hashimoto's and we do a bunch of stuff that improves their immune balancing, then their thyroid might start to function better-
John Gildea:
Yeah.
Chris Kresser:
And they might start to produce more thyroid hormone. And all of a sudden, the dose they were taking before, that was required to maintain normal levels, is now pushing them into hyperthyroidism, we've seen that. So, we will tell people when we start a functional medicine protocol, pay attention to any symptoms, in this case, of hyperthyroidism, or if you have low blood pressure.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:57:04]
Chris Kresser:
In this case of hyperthyroidism, or if you have high blood pressure, pay attention to these symptoms of low blood pressure. If you have high blood sugar, pay attention to symptoms of low blood sugar. So it's not an absolute no, it's just a pay attention and monitor it.
David Roberts:
Yeah. Chris, I just want to be sensitive about time. There is a question about detox that somebody had.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. I'm surprised that that hasn't come up yet, really. So let's do that.
David Roberts:
Yeah. So I think the question had to do with can you take too much BrocElite and... I think people are typically wary of detox regimens because they can get what I call, I think what people call, the detox flu, where you feel sick.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah.
David Roberts:
And what that issue is, is basically some of these compounds are revving up the phase one aspect when really... and the phase two is not revved up. And so you get this backlog of toxin that you need to get rid of.
David Roberts:
And so what sulforaphane does and BrocElite, it actually slows phase one and then speeds up phase two. In fact, it's the best phase two stimulator of any natural compound for phase two detox. And so typically you don't get that detox flu, that feeling of sickness that you might with other detox regimens.
David Roberts:
You know, I'll go to a holiday party for this very reason. You know, we don't promote excessive drinking because we're a supplement company, but I'll bring a bottle and people take it. And because that feeling of yuckiness the next morning is detoxing and taking BrocElite, actually, you won't feel that in the same way. Stop laughing, John.
Chris Kresser:
All right. BrocElite is the hangover cure. You've really found your niche, David.
David Roberts:
Well...
Chris Kresser:
No, no. In all seriousness, this is a really, really important point. And I'm so glad that it came up in the questions and you just addressed it, David. I talked about it at length in my podcast because as a clinician this is an issue I come up against a lot. People get really excited about detox. They hear about all of the toxins we're exposed to, and they're not wrong. And then they go out and they buy a bunch of glutathione and a bunch of other, you know, potentially powerful supplements that... and then they feel horrible.
David Roberts:
Yeah.
Chris Kresser:
What's happening, they're mobilizing toxins that might be stored in relatively safer place... Not safe places, but places that are relatively safe. You know, the body does that in its wisdom.
Chris Kresser:
They mobilize those toxins, which is phase one, but then their phase two is not active enough to push those toxins through to the next phase, phase three, which is where we bio-transform and eliminate those toxins. And so I see a lot of people making themselves worse with their detoxification efforts. And as you pointed out, David, there aren't a lot of natural compounds that have a really potent known effect on phase two.
Chris Kresser:
And so that's one of the reasons I was so excited about sulforaphane and BrocElite as a clinician because it really helps balance out the detox equation. So many of the other popular and well-known detox compounds are really ramping up phase one, and that can cause problems if you don't balance that out with these two.
David Roberts:
Yeah. And Chris, I was really appreciative of you dealing with the glyphosate issue on your podcast. And if you don't mind, could I share it.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, please do. Yeah. We're going to go until 11:15 Mountain, so we have about 14 more minutes.
David Roberts:
Okay. So this is... And this slide, basically, this is... John, you can add... I'll just dive in, but basically this is looking at Nrf2 on cells. Is this HEP22? Yeah, liver cells. And so basically looking at the amount of glyphosate that you could get in a meal, it actually reduces Nrf2 activation by about 30%. That's this the second bar. And then just sulforaphane actually alone increases the Nrf2, again, about 30%. But then in the combo, the glyphosate and sulforaphane you still... it negates this suppression of Nrf2. And that's significant, Chris, because it's not just your liver cells that detox. Every cell in your body has a detox mechanism. And that 30% that glyphosate reduces Nrf2, that can make every toxin that much more toxic that your body is exposed to, and you can't actually get it out in detox.
David Roberts:
And so that graph that we just showed, I really feel like that's... it shows the insidiousness of glyphosate, and it's a big deal.
Chris Kresser:
It's such a big deal. And it's so swept under the rug in the kind of dominant scientific paradigm. If you go looking for the research, you can find it. It's there. It's not hidden. And especially if you're looking at studies that are from independent sources that are not funded by the big ag industry or from organizations that have been conflicted by relationships with that industry... If you look at the independent science, you see very clear and concerning signals about glyphosate and its impacts on human health. So just for that reason alone, I'm happy to have this option to protect against that. And that's the original context that I started investigating it for and looking into it for.
Chris Kresser:
So this next question is from anonymous: "Husband and I are currently trying to conceive. We've been advised not to take too many strong antioxidant supplements because too many antioxidants can cause reductive stress in the body." You must be working with a functional medicine practitioner, I'm guessing, or someone with that orientation. With sulforaphane being such a strong antioxidant. Is there a risk of reductive stress when taking it?"
Chris Kresser:
I'll let you guys answer that first. And then I'll just give my kind of general comments about supplements for people who are trying to conceive or who are already pregnant. And maybe we can address that, too, with pregnancy and nursing and what your recommendations are, guys, related to that.
John Gildea:
I don't know. I mean, yeah...
David Roberts:
You always want to be careful about these questions, but...
John Gildea:
I think on the bottle, does it say, "Check with your physician?"
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll take it. I'll take this one over.
David Roberts:
Okay.
Chris Kresser:
So yeah, I'm quite cautious, generally, with supplementation during pregnancy and breastfeeding. You know, there aren't a lot of studies of course, on how these kinds of interventions impact pregnant women. No one's going to volunteer for that study. No researcher could get IRB approval to run that study.
David Roberts:
Right.
Chris Kresser:
And so we're flying a little bit blind when it comes to supplementation during pregnancy and nursing. We can make some assumptions for nursing mothers based on what we know about how compounds do or don't cross into the breast milk. And there are certain herbs, for example, that have thousands of years of safe use during pregnancy and breastfeeding. And I feel a little bit more willing to go down that road, things like probiotics, which there's really no reason to avoid a probiotic during pregnancy. But with compounds as potent as sulforaphane, I would be cautious. And I would definitely talk that over with your provider. I'm not going to make any recommendation here because I think that really is something that needs to be discussed one-on-one with a provider with your particular situation.
Chris Kresser:
So, sorry about that. I think it's too... The stakes are too high in that situation to be able to make a personal recommendation here.
David Roberts:
Yeah, Chris, I do want to add when I was coming out of public health school at Johns Hopkins, there was a study that came out of France, I believe, on women's breast milk and a flame retardant that was showing up in women's breast milk. So essentially the flame retardants are on our furniture. And so just skin exposure, it was allowing absorption into the skin enough that it actually showed up in women's breast milk.
David Roberts:
And so I'll just say we live in a toxic environment, and it's something to discuss, not to just punt.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah.
David Roberts:
So it's a good question. Discuss it, as you said, with your provider.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah. And going back to the more specific question, I would say I'm a little less conservative in the trying-to-conceive period because you're not yet pregnant. And that's just more of a period of trying to get the body in the best possible place to conceive and to carry a baby through a healthy full-term pregnancy.
Chris Kresser:
And so in that situation, I might be more likely to suggest sulforaphane as one of the potential things that could do that. You know, I think it depends on the overall context. If you're taking a sulforaphane and maybe one or two other supplements, and you're not hitting it super hard with high doses of vitamin A and vitamin C and lots of other antioxidant nutrients well above what you're going to get in a multivitamin or something like that, then I think it would probably be fine.
Chris Kresser:
I've never been a fan of taking really high doses of all those other antioxidants anyways because when you look at the scientific literature, it's not only that they don't provide benefit, but a lot of the studies suggest that really high dosing of antioxidants can cause harm. There's studies on beta carotene that suggest that. There's studies on vitamin A, you know, high doses of retinol in some cases. There are studies on vitamin E taken in excess. And these are observational studies, so we're talking about correlations, but they're enough to be concerning and enough to give me pause to take mega, mega doses of those particular things.
Chris Kresser:
All right. Question from Shane: "Is BrocElite contra-indicated for those who have gastrointestinal sensitivities to glucosinolates? Glucoraphanin can cause gastrointestinal distress as do cruciferous vegetables, which explains why the Viome gut test indicates I should avoid glucosinolates in food."
Chris Kresser:
So I can address the general question of the viability of the recommendations of Viome. And maybe if you guys have any questions about sensitivity to glucosinolates with BrocElite.
David Roberts:
Yeah. Yeah. So there are no glucosinolates in BrocElite. Glucosinolates are the precursor chemicals, and so all of them are converted into the actual pro-health chemicals called isothiocyanates. And I'm just going to, just because it was asked, I'm just going to share this graph real quick... not a graph, it's a figure of that conversion. So, you have glucoraphanin, which is a glucosinolate, and you have myrosinase, which is the enzyme in the cell walls of the BrocElite that can cleave this glucose, leaving the isothiocyanate and this NS double-blind, that's sort of the functional part of the isothiocyanate. And so essentially this is what I think you were talking about, but this is actually what's in the capsule.
Chris Kresser:
Yeah, very clear. And of course, that's the reason why we... I like BrocElite because it contains the compound that we're trying to get rather than the precursor. Viome-
John Gildea:
One other quick thought?
Chris Kresser:
Sure, please.
John Gildea:
So one of the things that sort of always bothered me about the studies with the precursor is that you're relying on your microbiome to do the conversion. Some of the products have myrosinase in them, but I'm not entirely sure how much of that makes it through your stomach acid and bile. So the majority of it is converted in your colon. And sulforaphane is a pretty strong anti-bacterial. So making it a very high concentration right in your microbiome, I could see why there would be people that are sensitive to that. Whereas sulforaphane has the ability to cross membranes and being water-soluble and hydrophobic environment. So it's absorbed very quickly, very early in your intestines. So it's the sulforaphane that is in a pill is not going to make it in high concentrations in your colon where it could possibly cause some sensitivity.
Chris Kresser:
Right. Great point. I wasn't aware of that, but that makes a lot of sense to me. A question about Viome. This is not directly related to BrocElite or sulforaphane, but I want to address it. Viome and similar tests that are using next-generation sequencing can be really helpful in giving you a kind of overall snapshot of what's going on in the gut. I think, respectfully, some of these companies have gotten a little ahead of themselves in terms of taking that information and converting it into actionable, practical recommendations like, "You should eat this food, you shouldn't eat that food."
Chris Kresser:
I think there's still a level of complexity to... referring back to what I was saying before about plants and their complexity. Well, just imagine the complexity of a system that has a hundred trillion organisms in it that we're only now just beginning to get the tiniest grasp of.
Chris Kresser:
And so I think it's a little bit presumptive at this point to be able to look at a microbiome analysis and say, "You should eat more of this or less of this." I don't think we're quite there yet.
Chris Kresser:
So certainly if you get a recommendation, you try it and it works for you, that's awesome. But I would definitely try it and experiment with it and not remove foods with... especially foods like broccoli or cruciferous vegetables with many known health effects just on the basis of a Viome test or any other test like that.
David Roberts:
Yeah.
Chris Kresser:
Okay, everybody, that's it for today. We have 152 open questions still. So-
David Roberts:
Hey, Chris?
Chris Kresser:
Yeah.
David Roberts:
Can I just throw one thing... One question that we've gotten a lot from the folks is are we a U.S. company? And so we're in Charlottesville, Virginia. We all speak English. We've gotten requests for English speakers. We all speak English. Customer service, we have one customer service person who's fielding all of your questions. She speaks very good English.
David Roberts:
And so we're a small company. There are seven of us, and we are working hard to get these products out to you guys. But we are very much a handcrafted supplement company. We're not the big guy out there that you're used to. So just wanted to throw that out there.
Chris Kresser:
And that's been very apparent to me dealing... and knowing David and John, and they're always been available to answer my laborious and detailed questions. And I was chatting with David and John before the show, and they complimented all of you on your engagement and scientific acumen. They said that the level of questions they get from this audience is a cut above, definitely, their typical audience. So that's all you, my peeps. I've trained you well. It's not me. I mean, these are some of the smartest people out there. I'm always so humbled when we get in a room together. I learn so much from all of my patients and all of the people in the audience and the practitioners we train and the health coaches we train. It's really inspiring, actually, to be part of such a community. And I just want to thank both of you for taking your time to come and do this and...
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:14:44]
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